In before this becomes a debate about snobbery and elitism and misses the point. I don't like how close it is to the river. And I think it'd make Oconee Street traffic terrible. Also, I am a gigantic curmudgeon who would rather see just about anything than more development of any kind. How about some trees! And yurts.

I signed the petition because I think that it will saturate the traffic on Oconee Street as well as ugly up the place and take away from the charm of downtown. I could see it as a threat to small businesses located downtown as well. Of course, the consumer decides where to spend their money. Anyone opposed to this development should give their business to the local mom and pops and drive right on past the big ol' Walmart.

The ideas "that such a store would bring jobs to town" and "would generate millions in sales tax revenues and property taxes" are debatable, and evidence suggests that those outcomes would be the exception, not the rule: http://www.bigboxtoolkit.com/images/pdf/fivemyths.pdf

This is very helpful: http://bigboxtoolkit.com/images/pdf/jobsandwages.pdf

High points inclue:

"Despite substantial evidence that big-box stores reduce employment
and lower wages, many local officials still believe these stores are job creators.
The myth persists in part because job gains are very visible—the 300 people donning smocks at Wal-Mart—while layoffs are usually scattered across numerous businesses."

While Wal-Mart is something everybody loves to hate and is a convenient focal point for opposition to the proposal (I, for one, wouldn't be appeased by having a SuperTarget there instead), I think the idea of a project built around a 90-95 thousand square foot big box anchor is the key. Since the developer, Selig, has apparently already committed to purchasing and developing the tract, and I suspect the big-box anchor format is intrinsic to their basic formula, given that there are no legal impediments to their building what they're planning, I think our best/only hope is that Selig will be sensitive enough to public opinion to agree to scale down the big-box feature to some extent. (It may well be that they're rational enough to have built that option into their formula.)
Of course, there is also the traffic study that has to be done for the state DoT -- I'm not sure what the result of that will be. There's no doubt that something will have to give, since a commercial development of this scale will create significantly more vehicular traffic on top of the congestion that already exists around that location.

I like this idea: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/business/a-town-in-new-york-creates-its-own-department-store.html?scp=1&sq=saranac&st=cse

In case my link to a NY "Times" article does not pass muster on "Patch," readers can google the piece for themselves. It's about the residents of Lake Saranac, who (and I massage and paraphrase) decided that, rather than accept their fate (being overrun by a big-box store), they could do something unusual. They raised capital to open their own department store. The citizens sold shares in the store, priced at $100 each, in order to to “take control of our future and help our community,” said one resident, continuing, “The idea was, this is an investment in the community as well as the store.” After almost 5 years, the organizers reached their $500,000 goal last spring. About six hundred people chipped in an average of $800 each. On Oct. 29, 2011 the Saranac Lake Community Store opened its doors to the public for the first time. By 9:30 in the morning, the store was packed with shoppers. The prices seem to have remained quite reasonable since then. The new store helps the people and the town itself -- and is REALLY local. If you search the "Times" site for something like "Saranac department store," you readers should find the article easily. Not sure about Wal-Mart on the A&D property just yet. Need more information.... But couldn't we citizens put an Athens-sized department store in downtown Athens? Why not?

This just in from John W. English: Athens is already well-served by the two existing Wal-Mart locations on opposite sides of town, so there is simply no need for another in the downtown area. A grocery store may be the highest priority. The volume of traffic on Oconee St., a vital artery to the East side, would obviously increase multi-fold, another major drawback of the site. Let's have local urban planners come up with a development scheme that works for everyone, including the developers.

I have not looked them up, but surely these Atlanta Seligs are connected with Slick Selig, a die-hard Bulldog fan and friend to many old-time, low-key (read: non-Atlanta-type) Athenians (like the late Coach Bill Hartman). If other friends of the Seligs can be found -- and if -- IF -- they can be depended on to speak up for the right sort of development in downtown Athens -- a project on the Armstrong & Dobbs property could turn into something most people could support, with another IF: if the infrastructure can bear it (which is a very big unknown).

I think we should be vigilant about what plans might do to the riverfront, but try to keep an open mind to the Wally world since jobs and fresh food are so bady needed by those downtown-area residents who are on permanent "foot patrol." Also, is this considered downtown business district proper? I think not.

Milton - I think you are right about the Seligs. Big donors to the business school? I'd have to look that up. Either way, there are some close ties to the project, starting with Miss Chitty.

And wasn't the Georgia Museum of Art -- before some misstep or UGa "reframing" a few years ago (that I have forgotten) -- almost named the Selig Museum? There may be a new generation of Seligs running the show, but surely members of this family won't treat Athens like "just another project site." I think they have emotional ties to our city. We'll see.

I am not an economist but found this paper on the web written by some academic economists. The link is http://www2.econ.iastate.edu/faculty/stone/mssupercenterstudy.pdf and the conclusions are fairly clear
you can skip the technical stuff and go right to the conclusions (unless you understand and enjoy reading about "pull factors"
"Quite often city councils and city staff are so anxious to attract new businesses that they will offer very attractive financial incentives and perhaps change zoning status in order to attract supercenter type stores. Their primary motivation seems to be the belief that these new businesses will increase the property tax base, increase sales taxes (where local sales taxes are in play) and increase employment. These are worthy goals, but many times, the net increases are minimal as the new big box stores merely capture sales from existing businesses in the area. A reduction of sales for existing businesses usually translates into fewer employees, less sales tax and lower property tax collections from the local stores."
More to follow

And the advice for local merchants "Rule-of-thumb 1 is: Local merchants that sell merchandise different from the supercenter or other big box stores tend to fare well and may gain sales as the additional traffic generated by the big stores spills over into their stores. Rule-of-thumb 2 is not so pleasant; it is: Local merchants that sell the same merchandise as the big stores will probably face a reduction in sales because of the difficulty in competing with major chains."

Our case in Athens is slightly different because as Dr. Kinman has stated, no incentives have been provided. Nonetheless, do we really want to trade all the negative esthetics that come with a WalMart for a bunch of low paying jobs that will mostly come from local businesses? One aspect that makes Athens so enjoyable is that we still have a functional down town with character (okay we could lose a few bars and some vomit) and putting a Walmart adjacent to downtown will just contribute to turning Athens into any old strip-mall town from California to Florida. Is that really what we want? I get tired of this jobs vs. environment argument and maybe we should have a surtax on big box stores to used for start up loans to develop local small businesses. However, not having WalMart doesn't obviate the need downtown folks have for a decent grocery store. As for WalMart the great employer, has everyone forgotten the largest class action suit in US history -- female employees vs. WalMart, recently refiled?

Where are the deliveries going to come from? Which direction? They can't come through downtown and Oconee street really doesn't need them. SO....we also need to improve another area for deliveries to be made. More money for unneeded and an un-useful (for the immediate area )project. Why not just put this out North Ave somewhere or 441 where is it easier to access and get something better for downtown?

The real shame of this situation lies in the fact that our local government had control of this valuable parcel for a good 10 months and could have implemented footprint and greenspace guidelines that would have prevented this type of big-box anchored development and paved the way for a riverfront district that would not only serve the local community, but draw people from far and wide to enjoy a vibrant and unique public space. Under our former mayor Heidi Davidson, the Economic Development Foundation was tasked with exploring development options in the creation of a "Blue Heron River District," when Nancy Denson took the reins a series of ball-dropping, stalling, and illegal secret meetings ensued essentially putting the kibosh on any public involvement/input on the development. Rumors circulated months ago that Wal-Mart was a likely tenant and it appears clear that certain powers-that-be on the EDF were eager to welcome outside corporate interests. The ABH covered this all along the way--everyone with an opinion on this project should do their homework to find out how we got here (I suggest you read these articles chronologically): http://search.onlineathens.com/fast-elements.php?querystring=blue%20heron%20river%20district&profile=athens&type=standard
This process is the result of a clear miscarriage of leadership!

Who is Leonard Pitts, the present owner of the site?

No to downtown Wal-mart. No to hurting local businesses. No to an excess of Wal-marts in our town. We have 2 already. Let's build a grocery store! What about turning our efforts into petitioning the corporate Kroger for donations to our local food bank? I have heard that as an argument against a Kroger instead. You can also call Mayor Nancy Denson at: (706)613-3010. She represents you. Even if her hands are tied on this issue, her voice could have an impact on changing the plan.

Thanks for the links Melissa! A must read, like you said. If I scanned them correctly, the plan was to finance the development by "selling $25 million in bonds to buy and improve 17 acres east of downtown Athens" funds which were to be "backed up by property taxes." Seems pretty farfetched when the housing market is not supposed to pick back up until 2015, but they should at the very least have let people into the meeting to know what was going on.

Looks like we've bought some time. http://onlineathens.com/local-news/2011-11-21/commissioners-delay-downtown-walmart-development

UGA downtown bars store and restaurants all increase traffic, delivery trucks and crowding but that is essential to the heart beat of Athens .If it is a successful business in the future hindsight will show the consumer really wants and what is needed . UGA has consumed huge amounts of property but look at the city we have due to U GA 'S presence

Please sign the petition and share this link with your friends. http://peopleforabetterathens.org/

Nancy, you have established an impeccable reputation for giving back to Athens and being involved in our community. You live in Athens and you say you hate Wal-mart. Why try to play devil's advocate against the development of a downtown Wal-mart? There are many issues associated with that particular retail giant. Why not get involved and lobby the developer to work with a different grocery store? I stand corrected in regards to the 2 Wal-marts in Athens. There is only one Wal-mart in Athens, but there are 2 Wal-marts that serve Athens.

Correct, we've got two Wal-Marts serving Athens. But don't forget, we've also got a Sam's Club. If this proposed monstrosity is built who knows, Athens just might take over as the per capita Wal-Mart & Co. capital of the world. How cool would that be? Ugh.

Brian, we need people like you in Athens. Move back!

So for whatever reason Nancy Zachella has decided to fold up her tent and go home, taking all of her comments with her. This is unfortunate as we were having a lively discussion about whether Athens ex-pats should be signing the petition to help stop the destruction of the downtown business district. Perhaps she saw the light, I hope so, we could sure use her voice in this fight.

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i think that should go home. and leave ours a lone. we need growth.we need job. we need help i thought mayor wcould do something. but you know how that gos.